News flash for people who don't know: Judaism believes in a god.
And they think they have this information from righteous people (tzaddikim) passed down in a chain of an oral tradition, tracing all the way back to Moses, Abraham, and even Adam (the supposed first-person). And the reason they think there's a god is because these people relayed that miracles have occurred in the past, and that a god did these miracles.
I was thinking recently that all the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all, essentially, make this claim of an oral tradition, or a mesorah, which they believe gives them authority to express an opinion on whether a god exists.
However, let's cut through all the fluff. Forget about miracles, texts, prophecies, etc.
Let's just go back to a person, or even you, who supposedly experienced god.
So this presence, this voice, appears before you, and says, "I AM GOD."
As any good skeptic would question, you say, "Okay. That's a claim. How do I KNOW you're god?"
The voice says, "BECAUSE I ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH."
"Okay. How do I KNOW you always tell the truth?"
"BECAUSE GOD CANNOT LIE."
"But why can't god lie?"
"BECAUSE GOD IS PERFECT."
"Right, but how do I know god is perfect?"
"BECAUSE I AM GOD!"
"But I'm not yet convinced you ARE god. See, you're engaging in what's called 'circular reasoning'. It's a logical fallacy whereby you assume the premises in the conclusion instead of DEMONSTRATING said premises."
This made me realize that all the talk about miracles, prophecy, magic, etc. is a way to distract from this very basic fallacy. If a voice suddenly appeared to me, and said it was god, it's ALWAYS going to be engaging in a logical fallacy if it attempts to persuade through its word alone.
Now, most Jews believe that this voice that Abraham, and Moses heard was INDEED the voice of a god. And to prove it ... it did MIRACLES. It suspended the laws of nature. It split an ocean and lifted a mountain. It made people come back from the dead.
However ... how does any of this, if it IS true, prove that a god did it?
How could you possibly be logically justified to believe it was a god that superseded the laws of nature? It could be a warp in spacetime. It could be super-powered aliens. It could be something we don't even comprehend. But none of the information leads us to the singular conclusion that it was NECESSARILY a god that did this. And any Jew who thinks it DOES is committing a logical fallacy. Somewhere in that little circle they have accepted something on faith, or on authority, or accepted a claim prematurely, at the very best.
And the only rational, reasonable answer when faced with all these phenomenon would simply be ... "I DON'T KNOW." I wouldn't know how to process it if I saw the laws of nature being overturned, but it wouldn't matter. I'm confident that, through scientific inquiry, even that "superseding" of nature would, itself, be another law, an unknown law, that would explain things in a perfectly rational manner. One thing that would NOT explain anything would be to listen unequivocally to a magical, disembodied voice that does magic tricks and demands us to worship it as an omnipotent authority ... simply because, "I said so."
Here's a guy who doesn't believe in God but does believe he is bright enough to speak on behalf of God and give hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions that would be addressed to Him. Pharaoh, who was so certain of himself and so arrogant was the one who would ask "Who is God? How do I know you really are God?" [Exodus 5:2]. Contrast that with Moshe, someone with genuine humility, who doesn't at first ask "who is God" but instead questions his own level and asks "Who am I?" [ibid. 3:11]
ReplyDeleteAnd where again did God "split an ocean"? Do most scholars believe it was an ocean? Perhaps you meant the more accurate opinion of it being a sea, or even a smaller body of water like a lake? Have you done any research on the notion that this was carried out by a natural phenomenon? And where did He lift a mountain? Are you referring to a midrash? Is this again the ongoing theme here on this blog where the lines of drash and pshat are blurred, leading the author to nonsensical questions and poor conclusions?
Which exact story are you referencing in regards to "bringing people back from the dead"? Not saying you're incorrect about it, I'm just wondering which episode you're referring to.
It seems that all your questions, as justifiable as they are, are pointing out toward a more rational approach to the Torah, rather than a jump to atheism.
Indeed, none of the "miracles" were experiences that left its spectators as unequivocal believers in God. It says by the splitting of the Sea of Reeds that only then did "the nation believe in God" [Exodus 14:31] despite all the wonders of the 10 plagues. It says later on that they doubted God's existence just prior to the war with Amalek [ibid. 17:7]. A rational approach to all this is that none of these were "supernatural" events, but rather "extremely coincidental" natural phenomena that left enough room for doubt, as demonstrated by the few examples, among many, of the nation doubting God's existence.
Whether you want to believe in God or not, that's your choice. But your attempt to bring Tanach into all this without the adequate background leaves you vulnerable. Your posts would be a lot stronger if they made reference to verses and meforshim, along with an expression of understanding the lines between pshat and drash.
Hmm. I think you've fallen into a deep trap in constructing the opposition's position. That rarely works very well unless you're arguing with a presupp.
ReplyDeleteYes, I think the feedback I've gotten from other people is that this argument hinges on what the definition of a "god" is in the first place, and why we use that label at all, as opposed to "a being that suspends the laws of nature," or something like that. I think I'll try to make that clearer next time.
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ReplyDeleteSo you're an atheist but how do I know your really an atheist?
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